A Cavemans Theory on Time Travel and Relativity in SWGOH
Aug 12, 2016 0:02:01 GMT -6
zzartasvetor likes this
Post by captcaveman on Aug 12, 2016 0:02:01 GMT -6
Time travel!
That's right, I said time travel!
Any toon that gets turn meter gain or reduction, is in effect, a time traveler. Also, Han Solo is the oldest toon in the SWGOH universe.
If you are interested in learning more about how speed functions in the SWGOH universe, and what the heck I am talking about when I mention time travel, gravity wells, relativity, and how this all relates to the SWGOH universe, please read on. Bear with me, it will get really long.
If you think science is icky, you may want to stop here and not waste your time.
Everyone, at some time while playing this game, will likely wonder how exactly speed functions in the game. How does the game decide who goes first, when they go, and in what order. What happens when speed changes, how does that effect my team.
Unfortunately, the answer is, we really don't know. The Devs at CG know, but that haven't told us exactly. They have provided some information, but they don't explain all the mechanics.
Fortunately for us, we can use the information we do have, to science our way to conclusions and develop a hypothesis of how we think speed works in the game. We can test this hypothesis with the limited info we can gather, and verify or dismiss it based on the evidence. If we confirm this hypothesis with repeated, verifiable results, we can all it a theory. We can then use this theory to explain everything we see regarding speed in the SWGOH universe.
Science. Crazy right?
Now, if our theory hold true across all circumstances we can provide verifiable evidence for, we can set out scientific laws. These laws should remain consistent across all verifiable circumstances.
The only problem is that there could be bugs in our universe. There could be a circumstance in the SWGOH universe where there is something occurring that does not fit our theory and laws about the way speed works in our universe. This is in fact, the only way we can know if there is a bug in our universe. We have to set out a working theory of speed and laws and test them. If we see anomalies, we know our theory is wrong, or there is a bug. Also, the laws have changed in the past, and could change again in the future.
I have developed a working theory of speed, and I feel that I know the laws of the SWGOH universe as they relate to speed. I have previously published a post regarding speed, it's history, and part of my current working theory of speed in the SWGOH universe.
You can find that post here, and I really recommend you read it if you would like a basic understanding of speed mechanics in this game:
forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/58474/a-cavemans-guide-to-speed-mechanics#latest
It will be important to read and somewhat understand what I am talking about in that post to follow along as I try to delve deeper into the mysteries of speed. It also provides a brief history of speed in our universe. If you didn't read it, you may want to go back and do so before continuing on.
You will notice I kind of rambled a bit at the end in regards to setting the value of the turn meter and relativity. At that point, I didn't fully grasp the implications of what I was trying to explain. Follow along and I will try to explain what I am talking about.
Ok, so according to what devs have said on speed, and what my working theory of speed tells us, we can set out the following Laws of Speed:
Laws of Speed
1. Turn meter fills at a constant rate that is dependent on that toons speed value
2. A toon cannot go over 100% turn meter, once it reaches 100%, it gets a turn, which reduces turn meter to 0%
3. Toons with a faster speed value, will always get first turn, Han Solo being the exception with his shoot first ability.
4. Toons that fill turn meter at the same time tie for action and RNG decides who goes first
5. Skills that increase turn meter fill a percentage possible and cannot fill a toon over 100%, any extra is lost.
6. Skills that reduce turn meter, reduce a percentage possible, not percentage available and turn meter can't be reduced below 0%
I hold these Laws of Speed to be Irrefuteable in our universe. If anyone can disprove these laws, I invite them to do so. Just provide screenshots showing that any of these laws are wrong. If you can, I will either be forced to change my theory, or we will have found a bug. Either way, it improves our knowledge about the game.
So that is what I know or can infer from both Dev statements, and repeatable, verifiable information obtained from playing the game. So what is it that we don't know? Well, we still don't know how speed really functions. We don't know the value of the turn meter. Most people will say we do and that the value is 1000. I invite those people to go back and do the same calculations they used to confirm, but to use a value of 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 instead. You will find that the numbers work the same.
The 1000 is an arbitrary number we use to describe the way we see time pass for our toons in the SWGOH universe. We can change that number and see the same results.
Think for a second about how we see what happens to our toons in a battle in the Game. What do we actually see? We actually only actually see pauses in time, when a toon fills a turn meter and gets to take a turn. That moment in the toons time is stopped and we get to decide what to do.
The actions that happen behind the scenes happens so fast that it is impossible to follow. We can only go back and use the knowledge we have to reconstruct what should have happened according to our theory of speed.
To do this, we set the turn meter to an arbitrary number then we divide that by that toons known speed value. This gives us a way to visualize what should happen, and we can verify that by observation of what we see.
This is how I can work out that my 270 speed JE will move in round 3.7037037r. And he will go before my HK at 150 speed who will go in round 6.666666r. Keep in mind that for all the equations I am doing, I am using the whole numbers, not rounded off values. Also keep in mind that we are achieving these numbers by assigning an arbitrary value to turn meter of 1000.
I can just as easily say my 270 speed JE will move in round 370.3703703r., and my HK in round 666.6666r if I use 100000 for the value for the turn meter.
The important thing to keep in mind, and that a lot of people have a hard time with, is that speed fills at a constant rate. That rate is different for each toon, because they have different speed values. Therefore, each toon experiences time different and has a seperate, but equally valid timeline!
Whoa, hold on! What in the heck are you talking about Caveman? Toons experience time differently, and have different timelines? Yup! We also have our own seperate, but equally valid timeline as observers in the SWGOH universe that is dependent on our toons timeline.
Follow along with me here and I will attempt to explain what I am talking about. We are now getting deep into the world of Einsteins theory of Special Relativity. Yes, that Relativity! Yes, that Einstein!
I will use an anology here to help explain what I am talking about. If you have seen the movie "Interstellar", you will understand what I am talking about. If you haven't seen the movie, check it out! It was pretty good, especially if you like science and relativity.
The Interstellar Analogy:
Remember in the movie, when they went to the planet on the edge of the Black Hole? The planets surface was in a gravity well. Basically, the mass of the black hole causes a huge warp in space-time, creating a gravity well.
The astronaut that stayed on the ship, outside of the effects of the gravity well, experienced time at a different rate than the scientists who took the smaller ship down to the planets surface. I don't remember the exact ratio, but some xx amount of years passed for the astronaut on the ship, while only xx hours had passed for the astronauts that traveled to the surface.
So the two seperate groups experienced time passing at a different rate for each. They were on different timelines that converged again when they met back up. For the astronauts that traveled into the gravity well and back, the trip appeared to only take hours. To the astronaut who stayed on the ship, the trip appeared to take years.
If it were possible for the astronaut on the ship to view the astronauts on the planet through a super powerful telescope, it would appear to him as if they were moving very, very slow. The converse is also true, to the astronauts on the planet, the astronaut on the ship outside the gravity well would look very, very fast.
So who is right? They both are! They both experienced time a a different rate, but each rate is equally valid, it just depends on whose perspective you look from. This is a part of relativity and is a fact of our universe.
This is also how our toons experience time. My 270 speed JE looks at my 150 speed HK and sees him moving very slow. My HK looks at my JE and sees him as moving very fast. So each toon is moving along a seperate, but equally valid timeline, just like in the example above!
Even though our toons are standing next to each other, we can imagine them as being in a gravity well. The fastest toon is outside, and the slowest toon is farthest inside the gravity well. Each toon will see each other toon as moving at different speeds. Each will be on its own seperate timeline. The toons turn meter is an indication of what is happening and where he is at on his timeline.
So where does that put us as players? Let's say that we are outside of this universe. We exist on a different timeline, in a complete different dimension. We only get to interact and observe this universe when time is paused. When time is paused we can observe what has happened and we also get to tell our toons what to do. But, we only get to see what is happening when a toon gets a turn. So let's say at the beginning of his turn he sends us a signal, this signal has a snapshot of every toons turn meter, we send a signal back and tell him what to do, then he sends a signal back with another snapshot of every toons turn meter.
This is pretty much how the game works. We don't get to see the behind the scenes actions. It happens too fast for us to follow. Instead, we get a snapshot of time before and after a toon gets an action.
Since we only get a snapshot of time before and after a turn, we can only view it from that toons perspective at that particular point in that toons time. So our only perception of what has happened comes from that toon, and our perception of time is his perception of time.
So let's see what happens. Our JE is moving at a rate of 270. Our HK is moving at a rate of 150. We know from the third Law of Speed that JE will go first, because he has the fastest speed. So JE fills his turn meter first and sends us a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
We can now assign his turn meter a number value to normalize time from our perspective. Let's set our turn meter value at 1000. Now we take that 1000 and divide it by the toons speed value. So 1000/270 = 3.7037037r. We can now say that JE went on round 3.7037037r.
Now we can backtrack and figure out every toons place in our perception of time according to their turn meter. Our time perception tells us we experienced 3.7037037r rounds. So we take HKs speed value of 150 x 3.7037037r = 555.55555r. Or 55.5% turn meter.
This should match up with what we see on HKs turn meter. Keep in mind that the turn meter is just a visual representation of a value, and not very accurate. We can't tell that it is 55.5555% full, exactly, but it is close enough.
Now we are in the middle of JEs turn still, and time is still paused. Now we get to tell him what to do. He can either roll a mini thermal, or use recalibrate and fill turn meter 45%. When he uses his action, his turn meter resets to 0%, and he sends us another signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
Let's see what happens with the first option. He rolls his thermal and depletes his turn meter, then sends us a signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter. Since time in the universe is paused, the only difference between the snapshot he sent at beginning and end of his turn, is that his meter has depleted.
Now we have to wait for another signal from a toon to tell what has happened. HK is the only other toon and has been filling at a constant rate at the same time as JE. He is slower so he fills slower. When he fills turn meter and sends a signal, he is on round 1000/150 = 6.66666r.
Now we know how many rounds have taken place so we can calculate what JEs turn meter should be at this point in time, from HKs perspective, which is also our perspective. We can do this easily by multiplying JEs speed of 270 x 6.66666666r = 1799.99999. But, JE had a turn already so we need to subtract that 1000 so he will be at 799.99999r. Or 79.9% turn meter.
Ok so what happens in the other possibility, where JE uses his recalibrate skill? This is where we get into TIME TRAVEL!
So we know JE goes first. He sends us a signal at round 3.7037037r. We know HK is at 55.5555% turn meter. Now JE uses recalibrate and adds 45% or 450 to his and HKs turn meter, and sends us a signal. Hk was already at 55.5555% turn meter, the 45% added by JE fills his turn meter, effectively moving him up to the same point in time on JEs timeline, which is round 3.7037037r. From the toons perspective, he just traveled in time. He cannot overfill and go past this current time into the future because he must take an action and deplete his meter so any extra over 100% is wasted. But, JE had empty space in his meter, so he can and does travel forward in time from! Any extra turn meter over 100% is wasted. HK sends us a signal, we get to tell him what action to take, he does that, depletes turn meter, and sends us another signal.
Now we know that HK is at 0% and at the same point in time JE was at 45%. The actions all occurred at the same point in time. This is our new perspective, which is HKs perspective.
Now we have to wait for a signal again. JE fills his turn meter and sends us a signal. Now we can again work out where HK should be on his turn meter. It's a little different this time because the last we knew, JE was at 45% when HK was at 0%. So now to fill his turn meter, JE only needed 55%. So now we set our normalization number to 550. So 550/270 = 2.037037r. So 2.037037r rounds have occurred since HK went last. So 148(2.037037r) = 301.48147 or about 30.1% turn meter is what HK will have.
This is the only way to calculate speed. We can only know what happens when our toons send us a signal and backtrack from there using the knowledge we have. Pretty crazy huh? Time travel is what makes it so hard to track speeds for every toon.
Ok, so what if JE had a skill that reduced turn meter instead of giving turn meter? Let's see what happens there.
JE goes first and sends us a signal. We work out that HK is sitting at 55.5555% turn meter. JE reduces his turn meter by 45% leaving HK at 10.5555% turn meter. From my perspective, which is JEs perspective, HK just traveled back in time on his own timeline!
So, in effect, toons that have their turn meters manipulated are Time Travelers!!
I think I have rambled on enough for now. If you have stayed with me this far, hopefully you have a better understanding of the way I think that time works in the SWGOH universe. If you have any evidence that proves anything I said wrong, please don't hesitate to post it. We can only get better with knowledge.
I mentioned at the beginning that Han Solo is the oldest toon in the universe, I won't get into that, but challenge you to post back and tell me why that is or is not true.
Also, a big thank you to Nebulous for listening to my inane rambling via pm for the last couple of days.....
That's right, I said time travel!
Any toon that gets turn meter gain or reduction, is in effect, a time traveler. Also, Han Solo is the oldest toon in the SWGOH universe.
If you are interested in learning more about how speed functions in the SWGOH universe, and what the heck I am talking about when I mention time travel, gravity wells, relativity, and how this all relates to the SWGOH universe, please read on. Bear with me, it will get really long.
If you think science is icky, you may want to stop here and not waste your time.
Everyone, at some time while playing this game, will likely wonder how exactly speed functions in the game. How does the game decide who goes first, when they go, and in what order. What happens when speed changes, how does that effect my team.
Unfortunately, the answer is, we really don't know. The Devs at CG know, but that haven't told us exactly. They have provided some information, but they don't explain all the mechanics.
Fortunately for us, we can use the information we do have, to science our way to conclusions and develop a hypothesis of how we think speed works in the game. We can test this hypothesis with the limited info we can gather, and verify or dismiss it based on the evidence. If we confirm this hypothesis with repeated, verifiable results, we can all it a theory. We can then use this theory to explain everything we see regarding speed in the SWGOH universe.
Science. Crazy right?
Now, if our theory hold true across all circumstances we can provide verifiable evidence for, we can set out scientific laws. These laws should remain consistent across all verifiable circumstances.
The only problem is that there could be bugs in our universe. There could be a circumstance in the SWGOH universe where there is something occurring that does not fit our theory and laws about the way speed works in our universe. This is in fact, the only way we can know if there is a bug in our universe. We have to set out a working theory of speed and laws and test them. If we see anomalies, we know our theory is wrong, or there is a bug. Also, the laws have changed in the past, and could change again in the future.
I have developed a working theory of speed, and I feel that I know the laws of the SWGOH universe as they relate to speed. I have previously published a post regarding speed, it's history, and part of my current working theory of speed in the SWGOH universe.
You can find that post here, and I really recommend you read it if you would like a basic understanding of speed mechanics in this game:
forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/58474/a-cavemans-guide-to-speed-mechanics#latest
It will be important to read and somewhat understand what I am talking about in that post to follow along as I try to delve deeper into the mysteries of speed. It also provides a brief history of speed in our universe. If you didn't read it, you may want to go back and do so before continuing on.
You will notice I kind of rambled a bit at the end in regards to setting the value of the turn meter and relativity. At that point, I didn't fully grasp the implications of what I was trying to explain. Follow along and I will try to explain what I am talking about.
Ok, so according to what devs have said on speed, and what my working theory of speed tells us, we can set out the following Laws of Speed:
Laws of Speed
1. Turn meter fills at a constant rate that is dependent on that toons speed value
2. A toon cannot go over 100% turn meter, once it reaches 100%, it gets a turn, which reduces turn meter to 0%
3. Toons with a faster speed value, will always get first turn, Han Solo being the exception with his shoot first ability.
4. Toons that fill turn meter at the same time tie for action and RNG decides who goes first
5. Skills that increase turn meter fill a percentage possible and cannot fill a toon over 100%, any extra is lost.
6. Skills that reduce turn meter, reduce a percentage possible, not percentage available and turn meter can't be reduced below 0%
I hold these Laws of Speed to be Irrefuteable in our universe. If anyone can disprove these laws, I invite them to do so. Just provide screenshots showing that any of these laws are wrong. If you can, I will either be forced to change my theory, or we will have found a bug. Either way, it improves our knowledge about the game.
So that is what I know or can infer from both Dev statements, and repeatable, verifiable information obtained from playing the game. So what is it that we don't know? Well, we still don't know how speed really functions. We don't know the value of the turn meter. Most people will say we do and that the value is 1000. I invite those people to go back and do the same calculations they used to confirm, but to use a value of 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 instead. You will find that the numbers work the same.
The 1000 is an arbitrary number we use to describe the way we see time pass for our toons in the SWGOH universe. We can change that number and see the same results.
Think for a second about how we see what happens to our toons in a battle in the Game. What do we actually see? We actually only actually see pauses in time, when a toon fills a turn meter and gets to take a turn. That moment in the toons time is stopped and we get to decide what to do.
The actions that happen behind the scenes happens so fast that it is impossible to follow. We can only go back and use the knowledge we have to reconstruct what should have happened according to our theory of speed.
To do this, we set the turn meter to an arbitrary number then we divide that by that toons known speed value. This gives us a way to visualize what should happen, and we can verify that by observation of what we see.
This is how I can work out that my 270 speed JE will move in round 3.7037037r. And he will go before my HK at 150 speed who will go in round 6.666666r. Keep in mind that for all the equations I am doing, I am using the whole numbers, not rounded off values. Also keep in mind that we are achieving these numbers by assigning an arbitrary value to turn meter of 1000.
I can just as easily say my 270 speed JE will move in round 370.3703703r., and my HK in round 666.6666r if I use 100000 for the value for the turn meter.
The important thing to keep in mind, and that a lot of people have a hard time with, is that speed fills at a constant rate. That rate is different for each toon, because they have different speed values. Therefore, each toon experiences time different and has a seperate, but equally valid timeline!
Whoa, hold on! What in the heck are you talking about Caveman? Toons experience time differently, and have different timelines? Yup! We also have our own seperate, but equally valid timeline as observers in the SWGOH universe that is dependent on our toons timeline.
Follow along with me here and I will attempt to explain what I am talking about. We are now getting deep into the world of Einsteins theory of Special Relativity. Yes, that Relativity! Yes, that Einstein!
I will use an anology here to help explain what I am talking about. If you have seen the movie "Interstellar", you will understand what I am talking about. If you haven't seen the movie, check it out! It was pretty good, especially if you like science and relativity.
The Interstellar Analogy:
Remember in the movie, when they went to the planet on the edge of the Black Hole? The planets surface was in a gravity well. Basically, the mass of the black hole causes a huge warp in space-time, creating a gravity well.
The astronaut that stayed on the ship, outside of the effects of the gravity well, experienced time at a different rate than the scientists who took the smaller ship down to the planets surface. I don't remember the exact ratio, but some xx amount of years passed for the astronaut on the ship, while only xx hours had passed for the astronauts that traveled to the surface.
So the two seperate groups experienced time passing at a different rate for each. They were on different timelines that converged again when they met back up. For the astronauts that traveled into the gravity well and back, the trip appeared to only take hours. To the astronaut who stayed on the ship, the trip appeared to take years.
If it were possible for the astronaut on the ship to view the astronauts on the planet through a super powerful telescope, it would appear to him as if they were moving very, very slow. The converse is also true, to the astronauts on the planet, the astronaut on the ship outside the gravity well would look very, very fast.
So who is right? They both are! They both experienced time a a different rate, but each rate is equally valid, it just depends on whose perspective you look from. This is a part of relativity and is a fact of our universe.
This is also how our toons experience time. My 270 speed JE looks at my 150 speed HK and sees him moving very slow. My HK looks at my JE and sees him as moving very fast. So each toon is moving along a seperate, but equally valid timeline, just like in the example above!
Even though our toons are standing next to each other, we can imagine them as being in a gravity well. The fastest toon is outside, and the slowest toon is farthest inside the gravity well. Each toon will see each other toon as moving at different speeds. Each will be on its own seperate timeline. The toons turn meter is an indication of what is happening and where he is at on his timeline.
So where does that put us as players? Let's say that we are outside of this universe. We exist on a different timeline, in a complete different dimension. We only get to interact and observe this universe when time is paused. When time is paused we can observe what has happened and we also get to tell our toons what to do. But, we only get to see what is happening when a toon gets a turn. So let's say at the beginning of his turn he sends us a signal, this signal has a snapshot of every toons turn meter, we send a signal back and tell him what to do, then he sends a signal back with another snapshot of every toons turn meter.
This is pretty much how the game works. We don't get to see the behind the scenes actions. It happens too fast for us to follow. Instead, we get a snapshot of time before and after a toon gets an action.
Since we only get a snapshot of time before and after a turn, we can only view it from that toons perspective at that particular point in that toons time. So our only perception of what has happened comes from that toon, and our perception of time is his perception of time.
So let's see what happens. Our JE is moving at a rate of 270. Our HK is moving at a rate of 150. We know from the third Law of Speed that JE will go first, because he has the fastest speed. So JE fills his turn meter first and sends us a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
We can now assign his turn meter a number value to normalize time from our perspective. Let's set our turn meter value at 1000. Now we take that 1000 and divide it by the toons speed value. So 1000/270 = 3.7037037r. We can now say that JE went on round 3.7037037r.
Now we can backtrack and figure out every toons place in our perception of time according to their turn meter. Our time perception tells us we experienced 3.7037037r rounds. So we take HKs speed value of 150 x 3.7037037r = 555.55555r. Or 55.5% turn meter.
This should match up with what we see on HKs turn meter. Keep in mind that the turn meter is just a visual representation of a value, and not very accurate. We can't tell that it is 55.5555% full, exactly, but it is close enough.
Now we are in the middle of JEs turn still, and time is still paused. Now we get to tell him what to do. He can either roll a mini thermal, or use recalibrate and fill turn meter 45%. When he uses his action, his turn meter resets to 0%, and he sends us another signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter.
Let's see what happens with the first option. He rolls his thermal and depletes his turn meter, then sends us a signal with a snapshot of every toons turn meter. Since time in the universe is paused, the only difference between the snapshot he sent at beginning and end of his turn, is that his meter has depleted.
Now we have to wait for another signal from a toon to tell what has happened. HK is the only other toon and has been filling at a constant rate at the same time as JE. He is slower so he fills slower. When he fills turn meter and sends a signal, he is on round 1000/150 = 6.66666r.
Now we know how many rounds have taken place so we can calculate what JEs turn meter should be at this point in time, from HKs perspective, which is also our perspective. We can do this easily by multiplying JEs speed of 270 x 6.66666666r = 1799.99999. But, JE had a turn already so we need to subtract that 1000 so he will be at 799.99999r. Or 79.9% turn meter.
Ok so what happens in the other possibility, where JE uses his recalibrate skill? This is where we get into TIME TRAVEL!
So we know JE goes first. He sends us a signal at round 3.7037037r. We know HK is at 55.5555% turn meter. Now JE uses recalibrate and adds 45% or 450 to his and HKs turn meter, and sends us a signal. Hk was already at 55.5555% turn meter, the 45% added by JE fills his turn meter, effectively moving him up to the same point in time on JEs timeline, which is round 3.7037037r. From the toons perspective, he just traveled in time. He cannot overfill and go past this current time into the future because he must take an action and deplete his meter so any extra over 100% is wasted. But, JE had empty space in his meter, so he can and does travel forward in time from! Any extra turn meter over 100% is wasted. HK sends us a signal, we get to tell him what action to take, he does that, depletes turn meter, and sends us another signal.
Now we know that HK is at 0% and at the same point in time JE was at 45%. The actions all occurred at the same point in time. This is our new perspective, which is HKs perspective.
Now we have to wait for a signal again. JE fills his turn meter and sends us a signal. Now we can again work out where HK should be on his turn meter. It's a little different this time because the last we knew, JE was at 45% when HK was at 0%. So now to fill his turn meter, JE only needed 55%. So now we set our normalization number to 550. So 550/270 = 2.037037r. So 2.037037r rounds have occurred since HK went last. So 148(2.037037r) = 301.48147 or about 30.1% turn meter is what HK will have.
This is the only way to calculate speed. We can only know what happens when our toons send us a signal and backtrack from there using the knowledge we have. Pretty crazy huh? Time travel is what makes it so hard to track speeds for every toon.
Ok, so what if JE had a skill that reduced turn meter instead of giving turn meter? Let's see what happens there.
JE goes first and sends us a signal. We work out that HK is sitting at 55.5555% turn meter. JE reduces his turn meter by 45% leaving HK at 10.5555% turn meter. From my perspective, which is JEs perspective, HK just traveled back in time on his own timeline!
So, in effect, toons that have their turn meters manipulated are Time Travelers!!
I think I have rambled on enough for now. If you have stayed with me this far, hopefully you have a better understanding of the way I think that time works in the SWGOH universe. If you have any evidence that proves anything I said wrong, please don't hesitate to post it. We can only get better with knowledge.
I mentioned at the beginning that Han Solo is the oldest toon in the universe, I won't get into that, but challenge you to post back and tell me why that is or is not true.
Also, a big thank you to Nebulous for listening to my inane rambling via pm for the last couple of days.....